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2007-05-08 10:54:23

Last author: Cenyre
Owner: Veltzeh

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Pro-Choice..Woman's Choice

If you think women should have a choice about abortions then you are at the right place. Feel free to tell stories or just leave a comment. I would really like a banner! I started this wiki because I feel that every woman should have the choice. I am also going to have a page for "pro-lifers" to have a say, but first we need more people to join! I will have pictures of the March in DC, the largest humans right march in the world! 1.2 MILLION! please leave a comment on why you are pro-choice!

PC stories feel free to write anything!

pro-choice banners!

PC pics put up your pics!

american terrorism - become aware of crazy pro-life extremists

[Vampire Mariam] I believe women should have the right to do what they think is right when the get pregnant. I know some women who get pregnant by accident may not be able to raise a child, or want to raise a child. What if the condom broke? What if she got raped?...it is her choice....I AM NOT pro-abortion!!.....it is for the woman to decide!!!! not the goverment or any one else!

[Scooz] I must agree that women should be allowed to have abortions, but I do not like the ones that wait til they are 6 months along or more because by then the baby has had too much time to develop. But I have been raped before and if he would have gotten me pregnant and I could not abort his child, it would not have been a pretty picture. Do not bring a child into this world if you do not want it, because you are ruining their life and yours.

[Rondel] I have seen too many situations which could best be addressed by terminating the pregnancy, and have myself been through the procedure, including in a situation where the egg, though fertilized, did not develop; without that procedure, the hyperemesis which caused me to throw up every 15 minutes round the clock could not have been stopped -- and I would still have wound up miscarrying, because there was no developing embryo, just a "blighted ovum".
The worst, though, was a situation in which a relative of mine faced a back-alley abortion after an incestuous relationship forced on her by her adoptive step-father, in the days before abortion was legalized in the US. I will never be able to understand *anyone* who can claim that a person in that position should be constrained by law from terminating a pregnancy which has not yet produced a child.
Where there is no brain activity, human life is deemed to have ended, so I cannot consider it to have begun when the brain and nervous system have not yet formed and connected

[Kayne] abortion should be legal , what if you were a crack whore and you got pregnant by accicent ? do you think that child is going to be happy ? no . What if you were 16 and you had a accident ? do you think she will can take care of it ? probably not
abortion = legal!!!!!!!

[Delight] What drives me insane is that fact that the people who don't support abortion and wish to ban it also don't support the health care for the woman when she has her child, or even before. They dont fund the orphanage, or somewhere that can help her raise it. They dont fund the homeless shelters enough because if the woman has a child that she can not handle or afford, thats where she is going to end up. Its an idiodic thing to abolish abortion because freedom requires it, and also because there is nothing to help the people who are forced to have children because of it. The people who dont get to go to school because they had to leave to have and care for their child. When such occurs, if the woman does not marry a rich man, which is even more unlikely because she already has a kid (Atleast statistically), she will become a lower class member of society, whoooooo guess what peoples, is not supported well enough at all by a government that would abolish abortion.
If a woman were to die, if she would keep the child, or the child were to die. Is that okay? If they were to die of starvation or cold because they cannot now afford heat or food or clothes, is that okay? Is it alright for someone to make a decision for everyone else that makes them, instead of ridding themselves of an unwanted pregnancy, die from hunger or cold? Its an extreme version of the situation, but it does happen. I know that for a fact. So a painful misrable death, or a painless one? If you're personally religious, is that right in the eyes of your deity? If you're not, is that right in the eyes of your morals?
What if the woman was raped? What about keeping the child then. The psychological damages from that would be amazing. For both mother and child.
There is also the thing that the people who get rid of it in the first place are men.
Also, think. If a woman were to find out that she was going to have a child who was seriously retarted or disabled. Such to a point that the kid would not live past birth, or to a point that the kid would be absolutly misrable for their entire life, if they survived that long. Such to a point that if the parent died, they would end up in an institution of some kind. Is that alright? Does that make sense to have a child like that? Does it make sense to create someone who will have a horrible and misrable existance?
Lastly, why do they think that they can make such a decision for the rest of the world. Its amazingly stupid. Those who abolish it could just not have abortions themselves. Do they really have to take control of everone elses choice, or lack of? Do they really have the Right to make it so that no one else could have even the option of having an abortion?
Sorry about the rant, but its just how i feel about it, and was relieved to be able to write it down and get it all out.

[Dil*]:
This is a touchy subject that is not just black and white, there's alot of grays in it. Sure It's terrible to get rid of a unborn child, but wouldn't it be just as terrible if a child was born to parents who didn't really want them in the first place. They would grow up in a hellish environment with little love and maybe it would of been better if they weren't born. Young mothers are confused and sometimes not able to take care of a child properly as well. I also think women should have a bigger say in this issue, hell, guys don't have to carry the child around in their bloody stomachs. I'm not a religious person and i frankly don't care if you're religious or not, BUT...when peoiple try to bring religion into things like this, it's very irritating to me. If the woman wants the abortion and she's not religous, she doesn't need bloody religious fanatics parading around the abortion clinic. If they're not religious, they DO NOT care about your ideals and whatnot. It's their decision if they want to get an abortion and they have to live with the consequences. Oh well, I'm going to hell now, wait, I've come to that conclusion ages ago...don't mind me, i have a messed up sense of humor. (I'm an aetheist anyways, so i don't care)

[Veltzeh] (founder of Pro-Choice League)
In my opinion, abortion should be legal, offered free in hospitals and encouraged if the woman has the slightest doubt that she wouldn't want to have the baby. In today's over-populated world all children should be wanted and they shouldn't have to spend even a small part of their lives in orphanages living off of the society's money that could be used for something else. Yes, I realize my opinion is very harsh, but there it is.
Finally, a question to think about: Why are those who oppose abortion often religious fanatics who likely have never read even basic biology, while those who are pro-choice are often doctors and other educated people who know their biology, physiology and even ethics?

[Hermes322] I think that it's better to get an abortion done by a doctor, in an office as opposed to a back alley by a creepy guy who offers to show kids puppies.

[Icetigris] I believe that the only people who should even have a say in these laws are women. Men don't have to deal with it so they should stay out of it. Also, I find it ridiculous that people value the life of a 40-celled blastocyst over a thinking, truly living, conscious woman who can feel physical and emotional pain. That ball of cells has no more consciousness than a potato; potatoes don't have rights, so why should something cognitively equivalent have rights, just because it has human DNA? I was at the March for Women's Lives and saw a great sign pointing out an interesting parallel: in China, the government forces abortion, in the US, the government is trying to force women to have babies they don't want. In both situations, it's not whether or not the people want to kill the baby (as anti-choice people are wont to say), it's about whether or not women have a choice about what to do with their own bodies. Whatever happened to separation of church and state?

[FireGypsy] I have read over your opinions on pro-choice. I beleive the mother should have a choice. I also beleive that abortion should be legal, under certain conditions. If you were a victim of incest, if the baby has a fatal or developing fatal disease, If the baby HAS aquired a fatal disease from the mother, if either the baby or the mother or both will die during pregnancy or labor. Other than that they abortionist should tell that mother NO! Millions of Women every year have abortions simply because they cant afford the kid, their parents wont let them, they have been raped, or because they simply dont want one. Well if you cant afford one...you shouldnt have had sex. If you dont want one...you shouldnt have had sex. If the mother doesnt want the baby for reasons such as stated above then the mother should have the baby and give it up for adoption. Those doctors should say "No. maam you cannot kill that baby in you. That baby is in no danger and neither are you. You must have the baby and put it up for adoption if you dont want it that bad."

[Arbor] It is simply the choice for which I stand. Give me the CHOICE. If you are against abortion then keep your child. Do not try to make my decision for me; let me deal with the consequences.

[sophomoric] I've debated a long while whether or not I should put up my stance here, but I've concluded that perhaps I should. This is a page about choice, and none should question my stance lest they wish for their own to be put to question. I am in a position where there is significant moral confliction. To begin, I am a vegetarian. What does this have to do with pro-choice? A lot. Just because I have taken a moralistic position against something that I feel is wrong, does not mean that I, or anyone else have the right to impose this position on others. I believe that animals and babies should live, but I do not believe that it is a pick and choose situation. In order to follow an omnivorous diet, animals have to die, and this is a concept that people don't even blink an eye at most of the time.

Pregnant women (I will not call them mothers under such circumstances) that decide they should like to get an abortion are rather inversely viewed as evil and terrible individuals. That carries a double standard from a moralistic perspective. Therefore, it is my stance that I don't respect the arguments of any pro-choicers unless they don't have a moralistic double standard.

That may seem a little cold and heartless, but as I regard animals as highly as I do humans (higher in a wondrous variety of cases) I find it almost comical that people can use an argument of potential. We, as humans, have warped the course of nature more than any other creature, under the argument that this is our earth given to us from any variety of deities. If that is their argument, then fine, mine is that women were given their bodies from any number of deitical figures, and just as we have spoiled the earth, let them do to their body as they will; there are far worse ways a child could die, all of them taking place when they are aware of their own existence.

As for the adoption argument; the world is over-populated as it is, outlawing abortion would cause another massive rise in the population, by millions if previous figures hold true.

Conclusion: It truly IS a choice just as we all, invariably, have choices.

[Tolmeni] I think it's rather telling that most of the anti-abortion zealots are male, who will never suffer through a pregnancy or labor that threatens their life and the life of their child. I don't believe in abortions when the fetus is too far along, but when the life of the woman is in serious danger, or there is no chance of she or the baby having any hope of a positive life, or if the baby will be born addicted to illegal substances...I think abortion is a viable option.

[AbLam] Whether it is the right or wrong thing to do, it is still a choice. No one but the woman who is having the baby should be able to choose. I'm sorry, but there isn't a good excuse for outlawing women's right to choose. Period.

[P(e)Ta] NO-ONE but the woman involved had the right to make a decision as to whether or not she goes through with her pregnancy (especially not conservative twats who are male and will never know the pain of having to choose). However, abortion should not be used as a form of emergency contraception. Girls still have to be responsible, but the choice should still be there!

[bodhranbabe] What I hate are the bumper stickers that say, "Smile, your mother was pro-life!" I'm sorry, but my mother was pro-choice, and she chose to have me. Being pro-choice is just as much about the positive choice as it is the negative. It's about the option.

[a faerie tale] When they scream "murderer" at me because I'm Pro-Choice, I feel the panic rise in my throat. I want to run, I want to yell, "Not me! I'm a moral person. I'm trying to help!" Those people have a right, I guess. It's what they believe. So I've got to face it, and be strong-- . POC's, "products of conception", that's what we're supposed say. "tissue" "termination" But when that machine starts, it's not just "tissue" that's sucked out. It's life: potentially human life. And like the Buddhists, I believe in "reverence for life". That's why I'm a vegetarian. But I also believe that conception should be a blessing. My brother's wife: when she's pregnant she sings lullabies, she organizes everything she eats and drinks-- she makes herself a perfect vessel. But you can't order a woman to do that! Not by bullying! What makes those people out there think a person can be frightened into goodness? Oh, give it up for adoption, they say! How can a mother do that? Carry a baby under her heart for nine long months and then give it away? Once it grows and moves it's a part of you. Loved, the way you love your own knees, or your breasts. And does your responsibility end, if you hand it over? What about Lisa Steinberg's mother? Does she sleep nights, now? She thought her daughter was going to be given every advantage, not tortured to death. Even a good adoption-- suppose you're a concert violinist, and your baby goes to a family that's tone deaf, that thinks music is noise....? Who would want to live that life? Who would want to give a child that life?

Add your name to the list of pro-choice people

1. [Vampire Mariam]
2. [Kisama]
3. [brandi_080786]
4. [Kiss_Me_Bum]
5. [Mitsune]
6. [Carol Lynn]
7. [Pale-Suzie]
8. [Blackshire]
9. [sarah l b]
10. [minifer]
11. [Scooz]
12. [dimmu_borgir3212]
13. [Arbor]
14. [Lily~]
15. [Tidd3]
16. [Rondel]
17. [Nukleopatra]
18. [VorpalBlade910]
19. [ei33]
20. [Fallen_Angel_666]
21. [Tehrror]
22. [Project Elysium]
23. [kate katastrophe]
24. [Kayne]
25. [Glorybox.]
26. [Tormenta]
27. [deja vu, mi amor]
28. [Veltzeh]
29. [Your Christ Is Dead]
28. [Mania Rage]
29. [Delight]
30. [Davorah]
31. [x_bubblicious]
32. [Alfirin Lindlea]
33. [Christie Shadow]
34. [// Grace //.And..Bend]
35. [Carol Lynn]
36. [Furr]
37. [Dil*]
38. [Pyra]
39. [Yoruno]
40. [Magic Circle]
41. [sophomoric]
42. [Doormat]
43. [how about no?]
44. [Hermes322]
45. [Icetigris]
46. [Tiezu Star]
47. [Elrohir Elensar]
48. [God called in sick today]
49. [BrokenPromise7x]
50. [Pillowthief]
51. [Blue Raspberries and Grape Juice]
52. [Not Here!]
53. [My Chemical Erin]
54. [Sue Falkenkralle]
55. [Anduraja]
56. [Bullet with Butterfly Wings]
57. [JinXTheMoodieAl]
58. [Morrigon]
59. [tiragon]
60. [Nostradamia]
61. [Jinji-Chan]
62. [Hazel]
63. [to a new?]
64. [jojo-kun]
65. [Anon Y. Mous]
66. [CharlotteCrying]
67. [Lashinnian]
68. [Tolmeni]
69. [Rosie.]
70. [*~A Cure For Contempt~*]
71. [AbLam]
72. [P(e)Ta]
73. [bodhranbabe]
74. [kaomi]
75. [Yiwerra]
76. [Bad Wolf]
77. [I stabbith ye]
78. [Eldanár Oronar]
79. [a faerie tale]
80. [kay-chan]
81. [Hufflepuff Lolita]
82. [deranged-bugosh]
83. [Bad Wolf]
84. [Blue Raspberries and Grape Juice]
85. [Cenyre]

Not the church, not the state, only the women should decide their own fate!

Have a different opinion? Check out pro-life and Against Abortion League.

2004-12-05 [Veltzeh]: Both? =)

2004-12-05 [My Chemical Erin]: Lol, thanks :)

2004-12-05 [Pyra]: *pounces on all* I BROKE UP WITH HIM!!! *smiles like crazy* Is it a bad thing that I'm happy about that?

2004-12-05 [Blackshire]: I'm happy when I break up with people that have slowly torchured me.

2004-12-05 [Pyra]: He was just so annoying! *pounces on seb and huggles the hell outta him*

2005-01-07 [sophomoric]: I repaired the wiki as best as I could; I hope no one sees any difference...

2005-01-07 [Veltzeh]: Goodie. Did you report the offender?

2005-01-07 [sophomoric]: it says he's been banned already...

2005-01-07 [Veltzeh]: Ah. Quick action. X)

2005-01-07 [sophomoric]: So it would seem.

2005-01-07 [Kelaria]: I reported him *smiles*

2005-01-07 [sophomoric]: Ah, good then... It was a new account...

2005-01-07 [Pyra]: thank god...I wanted to kill that mother fuck....And thanks, Soph, for repairing the wiki! ^-^ *huggles everyone*

2005-01-07 [Kelaria]: Yep! hooray!! *huggles back* ^_^

2005-01-08 [Pyra]: hahaha! PURPLE EYELINER! O.o......

2005-02-11 [Dil*]: who?

2005-02-21 [Pyra]: me! ^-^ I have purple eyeliner

2005-02-21 [sophomoric]: I don't... but I have black eyeliner... haha

2005-02-22 [Pyra]: ^-^ I think most of the people on this website own black eye-liner. *falls on the ground* geez I've had a depressing day

2005-02-22 [sophomoric]: but they didn't get theirs as a birthday present from their EX!

2005-02-22 [Pyra]: O.o intresting. People, hug me. I need lots of love on this day of sadness

2005-02-22 [sophomoric]: Sadness?

2005-02-22 [Pyra]: yes...I'm sad...

2005-02-22 [sophomoric]: Aww.. *hugs*

2005-02-22 [Pyra]: thankies, Soph *huggles back*

2005-02-22 [Dil*]: I'm kinda sad too hugs for me? ;_;

2005-02-22 [sophomoric]: *hugs* hehe

2005-02-22 [Dil*]: ^__^ yay! hugs for all

2005-02-22 [Pyra]: *huggles everyone*

2005-03-23 [Morrigon]: Hello everyone heh I'm new

2005-03-23 [sophomoric]: 'ello 'ello!

2005-03-23 [Dil*]: hiya :)

2005-03-25 [Pyra]: welcome! ^-^ *offers you a cookie* Cookie? ^-^ There's a glass of milk to go along with that, if you'd like ^-^

2005-03-25 [Morrigon]: oooh, nice

2005-03-27 [Pyra]: *nods* I try to be

2005-04-04 [Arbor]: I always wonder why we keep [FireGypsy]'s little paragraph on here...O.o

2005-04-04 [Veltzeh]: Hmm... that might be a left-over from some of the attacks on this page... Oh well, I'll remove it now.

2005-04-04 [Morrigon]: people think an issue is only black and white, if you don't want to have kids, don't have sex. blah blah blah. That is never going to be a way to solve the issue. People will have sex and we have to accept it. Our responsibility as humans who care about eachother is to make sure people are safe as they can be and make sure they still have their options if an accident or something were to occure.

2005-04-06 [Nostradamia]: PRO BIRTH-CONTROL! not anti-sex..

2005-04-06 [Nostradamia]: and hi. ok if i join?

2005-04-06 [Veltzeh]: Sure, go ahead!

2005-04-13 [Blackshire]: Damn, sorry I haven't been able to keep up with this wiki. There are so many members now!

2005-04-13 [Panda-monium]: ok, I know this is hypocritical of me, considering I vouch highly for human rights, but...I mean, how can you be sure it won't be made into a form of birthcontrol?

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: Abortion isn't a pleasant thing, I'm sure most would prefer to use normal birth control.

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Discount abortion anyone? *holds out coat hanger*

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: that...isn't pleasant either :P

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Really?

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: I dunno, never tried it before :P (but the logistics of it..)

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Wanna try it? I'll help with the pregnancy.

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: haha, I'm sorry to decline your gracious offer.

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Pff... so be it. I'll turn my attentions to more tempting venues.

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: Have fun with that.

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: I will. This summer :P

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: haha...I'll just stick with my bf :P

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Which works out in the end. I'll stick with my girlfriend :P

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: humm, this has gone horribly off topic.

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Not quite. Relationships evolve into marriages, marriages to unwanted accidents.

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: That's a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Not if you ask me though, and you sort of were asking me. I tied it in.

2005-04-13 [Dil*]: Ptff...so is there actually any opposition watching this page?

2005-04-13 [Veltzeh]: I hope not XD Heh, I kinda prefer it when there are no big conflicts. As for [Panda-monium]'s original question: I wouldn't really like it to go there, but I have no objections to it either.

2005-04-13 [Panda-monium]: I don't know if there is opposition watching the page, because I am so iffy on the topic I watch both of them, but I am leaning more towards pro-choice, I mean I know the procedure is very taxing on the mother, and isn't something I am sure women would want to do over and over, but I can only assume as time goes on, it will become easier and more convenient as all things do, and I don't think this should be used as a form of birth control.

2005-04-13 [Veltzeh]: Yeah... good for you. I just rather like letting people decide for themselves.

2005-04-13 [Panda-monium]: *nods* Same here, my most used motto is 'to each their own', which is why I feel slightly hypocritical over my hesitation on this major issue.

2005-04-13 [Veltzeh]: Suspicion is always good =)

2005-04-13 [sophomoric]: Well, as time progresses, better forms of birth control will be developed too... so... *shrugs*

2005-04-13 [Panda-monium]: Yeah I know, I know. >.< I just...I never really understood someone being wishy washy on an issue, but somehow I am torn two ways on this.

2005-04-18 [Morrigon]: what's really pathetic is, in my town the majority of people there have no idea that there is a family planning center there. wouldn't it help if these damn things were advertised everywhere?!? screw someone getting offended lives depend on this...

2005-04-18 [sophomoric]: If people need it, it's their responsibility to consider it, and look for it.

2005-04-19 [Morrigon]: That's not fair at all. What happens every time we expect people to work things out on their own. People are embarassed to go to these places because society tells us sex is bad. Why do we have to continue the retarded cycle if we can help people keep safe.

2005-05-02 [Panda-monium]: That's a good point, that's like the pope and Condoms in Africa.

2005-05-10 [Morrigon]: hhehehehe just the way you put that is great

2005-05-10 [Panda-monium]: *shakes head* That is not what I meant. :P

2005-05-10 [sophomoric]: Ok, I slacked off and didn't respond, but here: If the people are of the sort that would be considering an abortion, then it should be their responsibility to, say, phone around with regard to them. That's pretty much it in simplest terms. It's not something you want to discourage, but that also doesn't mean you want to encourage it either. It's very controversial.

2005-05-10 [Dil*]: I agree....I mean typing up 'abortion' on google can get you simple facts.

2005-05-10 [Veltzeh]: Unless you come across one of those fanatic christian sites...

2005-05-10 [Panda-monium]: Ok, I agree that it should be a choice, I think...but shouldn't their be regulations or something? I mean...*tries desperately to put thoughts together* I hate being wishy washy on an issue.

2005-05-10 [Morrigon]: Regulations? eeeeeh. I must not get heated no matter what....If your'e talking about regulations on whether or not the woman should have an abortion I don't think it's right to do that, in fact I find it even mroe sickening than just having an abortion because you cant raise a child. It doesnt make sense to me that a child has less of a right to exist because it is the result of rape. You get what I'm saying? the bottom line is the whole thing sucks ass and I think we should work on keeping people protected so we don't have to deal with abortion. But I still think it should be legal...

2005-05-10 [Morrigon]: meh...I feel like I might explode....

2005-05-10 [Panda-monium]: I don't know, I think human rights is the way to go on this, but...whose rights are more important? The child or the mother? And I mean it shouldn't be used as a form of birth control either.

2005-05-10 [sophomoric]: My stance: Biological tendencies can be inherited, and it's been proven that traits of the father (ie rapist) can be past on to the offspring (ie rapist II). So in that sense, the child has less of a right to live. Secondly, the argument seems to be over whether or not it is actually a child until birth. There are people alive today that are being treated inhumanely because of how we (as a generality) feel about them, believing they aren't worth of human rights due to ____. So what's a fetus? A fetus is a developing human. What is a human? An animal. A human is not a person until a human can identify itself, etc. I'm bitter, I'm jaded, but I'm arguing a bit of a logical point here. Life has

2005-05-10 [sophomoric]: been tossed away with frightening regularity through war and the like, but then we focus so heavily on one potential life. Its redundant and foolish. Either life has worth or it doesn't. It's not a matter to be wishy-washy on and EVERYONE is.

2005-05-10 [Veltzeh]: Well said, [sophomoric].

2005-05-11 [Panda-monium]: I know it isn't, which is probably why I feel so bad about it, but the fact remains that I am.

2005-05-11 [Dil*]: I simplified it alot in my head. Rights of Women Vs. Rights of unborn child. I'd go for the already living one over the unborn one.

2005-05-11 [Panda-monium]: I don't know, to me it seems, human rights against human rights...there is no real winner

2005-05-11 [Dil*]: Exactly.

2005-05-11 [Panda-monium]: Which is my perdicament I guess. *goes off to think about it some more*

2005-05-11 [Morrigon]: I don't care what statistics would say about a rapist and genetic behavior. If that's allowed to pass then people will have abortions if their child might be gay. I think it is terrible to judge in any way what child has less of a right to live than another. It's plain selfish

2005-05-13 [sophomoric]: Nothing in the world is black and white. NOTHING. Anyone that tries to convince you otherwise isn't worth listening to since their mind is closed to anything you could suggest.

2005-05-13 [Veltzeh]: Yep yep. Now, the member list is getting some weird comments on the list itself even though there's a space to type up a short opinion... All in favor of removing the text pieces from the memberlist say aye.

2005-05-13 [Dil*]: aye

2005-05-14 [Arbor]: yes

2005-05-15 [sophomoric]: aye.

2005-05-15 [Veltzeh]: Three ayes during two days is good... removing :)

2005-06-05 [Morrigon]: oh, sorry, Aye

2005-06-05 [Morrigon]: hahah that was late >.<

2005-06-05 [Veltzeh]: Heh. Well, supportive comments are never too late ;)

2005-06-05 [Morrigon]: hahah okay good

2005-06-06 [Pyra]: Dil! Soph! I haven't talked to you guys in forever! (My mother went on another of her psycho raids and ripped the comp. out of the wall...) O.O

2005-06-06 [Dil*]: I think soph left elftown..., ripped the comp off the wall o.o

2005-06-07 [Pyra]: v.v I hope not! And yes, she's clinically psycho

2005-06-07 [Dil*]: ..ahh..I hope you aren't too traumatized.

2005-06-10 [Pyra]: No....I'm not

2005-06-10 [Dil*]: good :)

2005-06-20 [Roc]: [Coffee Tawk] @ wiki: Topic for the weeks 6/19-7/3: Abortion

2005-06-20 [Hermes322]: Isn't that always the topic though?

2005-06-20 [Roc]: I'm trying to fascilitate a debate between both sides. However, I have yet to persuade anyone of the dissenting opinion.

2005-06-21 [Veltzeh]: Hm, [Roc], you should type it [Coffee Tawk@wiki]

2005-06-21 [Roc]: Thanks. My bad.

2005-06-27 [Pyra]: ....Dil? I miss soph....v.v

2005-06-27 [Dil*]: he's back.

2005-07-01 [Pyra]: I know ^-^ I've been talking to him

2005-08-08 [little bubbles]: i am writting a 10 - 12 page report on abortion. any ideas? comments? text me at my house.

2005-08-15 [AbLam]: I noticed that most of the pro-choice wikis have links to pro-life wikis, however, only one of the pro-life wikis has a link to a pro-choice wiki (Against Abortion League) which I aplaud them on, but still...

2005-08-15 [Veltzeh]: Yeah... I guess it speaks pretty well for our general tolerance. Or then we just know there are those wikis. I only know those two though.

2005-08-16 [Yiwerra]: and i didn't know this one and just discovered it!!! the pro-choice wiki should get a link here badly. there are so few members, i always wondered how that can be all! but now i came here :P

2005-08-21 [X_Who_Am_ I _Today_X]:

please may i join??

2005-08-21 [Veltzeh]: Anyone can, so why couldn't you, [X_Who_Am_ I _Today_X]?

2005-09-07 [I stabbith ye]: Hello everybody ^_^

2005-09-08 [Morrigon]: hello

2005-09-20 [Giant Smurf]: I was taught while I was at school by a Feminist, she taught my english classes, she was against everything to do with men, all of this was caused by her husband leaving her for a man. Was her unfair abuse towards the boys in her class, along with a particular female student who fell pregnant and was considering an abortion justified????

2005-09-20 [Veltzeh]: As your sentence was understood... No, your teacher's abuse towards the boys was not justified. "A particular female student who fell pregnant and was considering an abortion" is not "justifiable" by herself as far as I know...

2005-09-20 [Dil*]: What the heck does that have to do with anything? o.o (to giant smurf)

2005-09-21 [Pyra]: no idea *loves*

2005-09-22 [Giant Smurf]: It doesnt have anything to do with anything i just felt like writing it because it was on another wiki and i needed more opinions

2005-10-03 [Morrigon]: Wow, no abuse towards anyone is allowed or should be. It's not good to single out anyone and say how they were wrong so maybe the rest of the people like them are bad and woah I'm lost

2005-11-01 [deranged-bugosh]: A litte off subject, but I don't think that a man should have a say in abortion. No, I'm not sexist, but when he can finally having something growing inside of him that the rest of the world refers to as a 'fetus', then he can complain...other than that, it's none of his business.

2005-11-02 [The Pink Panther]: Hum... Deranged... what about the fact that the "fetus" inside the woman has a 50% of the father's DNA??

2005-11-02 [Nostradamia]: the man is still not the one carrying the child. going through a pregnancy is usually not very easy (though i personally wouldn't know, but one can always assume) and therefore i think it's up to the woman, not the man, if she is willing to go through the pregnancy or not.

2005-11-02 [Nostradamia]: and then one more thing; will the 50% of the father's DNA work as a guarantee that the father will actually be there for the child as a parent? will he be there giving his allotted 50% of the parenthood every child has the right to?

2005-11-02 [Morrigon]: I believe it's a horrible thing to not let a man put in his say about his woman's abortion, it's of course wrong to not allow it at all but it's sick to keep any one's opinion silent in any case. It does have to do with him because he made it, a baby isn't just simply a fetus inside someone's stomach, it's life doesn't just end there. Are really going to say that every human male wouldn't take care of the child when it's born?

2005-11-02 [Morrigon]: Yes it's hard for a woman to carry a baby for nine months, and most of the time it is equally hard and ever more so to have to get an abortion, A woman will feel pain over the loss of a child, don't be so calloused and unthinking to believe a man wouldn't or couldn't feel that pain too.

2005-11-02 [deranged-bugosh]: but if a woman were considering an abortion, in most cases it is because it was an accident. Like Krusmynta said, is the father going to take a 50% share in the child's life, even if it was over a one night stand. That kind of thing is slim to none, given the fact that the woman would have custody of it more than likely and would have to care for it more than the guy, especially if she doesn't really like the father...therefore, it's not really his choice...

2005-11-03 [Morrigon]: but is it morally right? history has proven that certain laws just whitewash over situations, you simply cannot say a man would not be involved, in doing so you are irresponisible and immoral. Simply neglecting to realize that this issue is not in black in white is a terrible mistake. we have to consider the feelings of both the man and woman if they are both involved.

2005-11-03 [deranged-bugosh]: if the man were to be involved and say, you were married or in a really good relationship, than the man should have some part in it. What I am saying is that it's overall the woman's decision.

2005-11-03 [Morrigon]: And I'm saying you're wrong because you're still assuming a certain situation

2005-11-03 [Morrigon]: mostly because if the child was born a father involved would be raising it along with the woman. Wouldn't you think excluding men in the decision process would further drive a stake between us?

2005-11-03 [Dil*]: You're talking as if it's a 50%, 50% thing, it would be an equal thing for there is half the DNA in the sperm and half the DNA in the egg, BUT the man doesn't have to carry around the fetus for 9 months. There is physical sacrifice here. Yes, the father would have some say, but probably not as much as the mother.

2005-11-04 [deranged-bugosh]: well, medearain, what if the father wasn't going to be there at all, then it's not his choice at all...

2005-11-04 [The Pink Panther]: There's two things nobody's taking into account here. First: is, as I see we did, we agree that the fetus has DNA from its father and mother, were talking of a HUMAN BEING. Therefore, neither the mother not the father have any decision in having it or not. It is a person and it has the right to live! (And notice I have to say "it" for those who like to call it fetus, but saying "it's a person" sonunds somewhat awkward...). Second: the mother is not an innocent being who "by accident" got pregnant. You can lose a leg by accident, and you can meet someone by accident, but you CANNOT get pregnant "by accident". Except some extreme cases, the mother has given full consentment for the sexual

2005-11-04 [The Pink Panther]: intercourse, therefore she IS RESPONSABLE for her child, she as much as the father. Carrying a baby inside your utherus does not mean she has any decision at all over it! And killing somebody because you were not responsible or mature enough, is a proof of mankind limitless cruelty and nonsense. What I mean by this is: the point is not wether the father will take care of the baby, or wether the mother will make more "effort", the point is, both mother and father have the responsability of having bred a new human being, and aborting the pregnancy will not undo it.

2005-11-04 [Veltzeh]: No one can take everything into account.

2005-11-04 [The Pink Panther]: Of course not, I was just stating they were not taking into account important points...

2005-11-04 [Veltzeh]: What are important to some aren't important to others. The mother has a right to "live", too.

2005-11-04 [The Pink Panther]: We're not talking about a mother vs baby fight here, Veltezh, we're talking about abortion!

2005-11-04 [Veltzeh]: Yeah, so am I.

2005-11-04 [deranged-bugosh]: so you would rather the child lived in poverty, a broken home, fighting, and abuse rather than be aborted?

2005-11-06 [Dil*]: It IS a fetus VS women's rights issue. Why do you think it's such a problem?

2005-11-06 [Morrigon]: No one is saying it's not any ones responsible. that's why peopel have to make these hard choices to you it seems abortion is just an easy way out but it isn't. it is a hard thing to do but that is part of the choice. It may be an important point to you but to me it is too obvious to even have to bring up. you are too close minded to put yourself into someone elses shoes and realize there are such things as an accidental pregnancy that doesn't involve rape. to say, "if she was ready to have sex she should be ready to have kids" is incredibly cruel and irresponsible, regardless of how she should have been responsible, she made a mistake, people make mistakes

2005-11-06 [Morrigon]: to hold something against people like that is a horrible thing to do. to force a child to know that its mother never wanted them is horrible too. You can't cover over every case with, "oh they should have been responsible" is an ignorant thing to do. there is no right and wrong, no black and white you don't know what happens in every case so you shouldn't try and judge people.

2005-11-06 [Rosie.]: i agree.

2005-11-07 [deranged-bugosh]: *bows down*

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: Sorry, kids, but believing "there is no right or wrong" when we're talking about killing a human person for the lack of responsability of another person, THAT is what I call narrow minded. What you don't seem to care about is that there is a baby inside the girl, even if you can't see him or her. The fact that abortion is hard for the mother to overcome (of course! it means killing her child- within her womb!) it doesn't make it even a little bit excusable. Let me be totally clear: I do not judge people, even those who make abortions, I believe every case should be analysed by itself. But I also believe there should not be cases of abortion at all. What I mean is, what all of us

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: could do instead of saying "the baby will be unhappy" as my dear deranged-Bugosh here present did,(and let me tell you kid, no person in the universe and that includes you! could assure the kid will be unhappy OR happy at all) is make sure the baby will have a future. Every living person has the chance to be happy despite any limitations it may have. See Helen Keller (ever heard of her?) She was blind and deaf, and I bet you all she would not rather be aborted, try reading some of her writings, it will give you a few lessons about life. So,. instead of arbitrarely deciding the baby will not be happy (ha! tell me that is an open mind!) you could start working for girls (AND boys

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: to have a better education, to be more clrearly aware of their responsabilities, and for their babies to have a better chance. Finally, I would ask you to open your minds a little bit more, and come to understand that I never meant a girl who has sex is responsable enough to have a kid, instead, I meant girls who are not responsable enough to have a baby should not have sex.

2005-11-07 [deranged-bugosh]: but you see, a majority of the women who get abortions know that they couldn't make the child happy, and the human mind always thinks of itself first. I know that I don't plan on a life of selabacy (sp) because I don't want to have kids and I don't think that anyone else should have to. My stepdad's first wife had an abortion because she knew she couldn't care for the child, but when she finally became responsible, she had four kid that were raised quite well. And there are 'accidental' pregnacies because birth control and condoms don't guaruntee that you won't get pregnant.

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: I don't think it's that fair to kill someone because you're not ready to raise him, you know...? Besides, nobody knows for sure wether one can make a child happy or not. What did she have, crystal balls, so she could tell? And if you can't take care of the child, there are long lists for parents who want to adopt them and give them everything you can't. As for "accidental" pregnancies, nature's work cannot be called an accident.

2005-11-07 [deranged-bugosh]: so pretty much, you're saying that if you don't want kids, don't ever have sex?

2005-11-07 [Veltzeh]: And how about all those eggs that women menstruate because they didn't have sex? They'll die too. And the millions of sperm cells of men that they produce each day...

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: No, I'm saying, if you will have sex, then make sure you're responsable enough to take care of a baby, because it may come. And Vetzeh, I hope you're kidding.

2005-11-07 [Veltzeh]: Half yes, half no. You'd probably say that you differentiate between a gamete and a zygote.

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: Get your Biology book and check

2005-11-07 [Veltzeh]: Sigh, I've studied more than enough biology, you know. You, then again, should read some more, in my opinion.

2005-11-07 [The Pink Panther]: If you think I missed something, I'd be thankfull if you are kind enough to point it out.

2005-11-07 [Veltzeh]: Nah... I'm just not good at converting people to have different opinions.

2005-11-08 [kay-chan]: Now we're getting into the biological definition of life... does it start with the gamete or with the zygote. That varies with philosophical/scientific viewpoints, but has yet to be proven.

2005-11-08 [Dil*]: that's silly, it's fair game until first trimester (afterwards it's questionable), until then, it is only a lump of cells. And I'd take women's rights over zygote/fetus rights anyday.

2005-11-08 [Dil*]: and you haven't addressed rape.

2005-11-08 [kay-chan]: Rape doesn't change the reproductive cycle... But yeah, I agree with you, [Dil*], (sorry I didn't add 'or much later', but I wasn't on that part) I'm just saying that there are different philosophies. Some people say 'zygote/fetus=life' because of the POTENTIAL for life. It's just a different philosophy.

2005-11-08 [The Pink Panther]: Hum... excuse me... are you meaning the fetus is a group of dead cells?? And Veltzeh, since when is Biology a matter of opinions?

2005-11-08 [Veltzeh]: Biology usually isn't. I don't understand what is it that you're not getting with respect to that, but I meant that I'm not good at converting people to different opinions whether or not they know the scientific facts or not. It is easier if the other has studied science and doesn't deny the obvious scientific observations, though.

2005-11-08 [The Pink Panther]: Let's go back a little bit. You said I should read more Biology. I asked you to point out why. You said you were not good at converting people opinions. In case you misunderstood my question, here it is: which scientific fact regarding Biology do you think I missed or got wrong?

2005-11-08 [Veltzeh]: I don't know really, that's the point. I suppose it goes back to that comment about whether or not I'm kidding, because you told me to get my biology book. What would I do with it, after all, I knew what I was talking about there...

2005-11-08 [The Pink Panther]: Well, I told you about your Biology book because you said: "You'd probably say that you differentiate between a gamete and a zygote." I just wanted to show you it's not "my opinion" but an absolutely scientific fact. So I would ask you from now on, if you'll make a statement such as "You, then again, should read some more, in my opinion" to have a real basis to say it. Thank you.

2005-11-08 [Veltzeh]: Ah, I meant "differentiate between the rights of a zygote and gametes", I suppose. And same to you, too, you assumed just as much if not more about me and you made it first. Yeah, [The Pink Panther], it was you who told me to read a book first, and I replied to that accordingly because I didn't understand what you meant. Do you, by the way, think that abortion is okay if it does threaten the mother's life?

2005-11-09 [Dil*]: defending potential for life, bah, whatever, next they'll be defending the rights of sperm.

2005-11-09 [The Pink Panther]: How childish people can be. Haven't you just read, Veltzeh? I did not mean you did not know Biology, I was only making explicit that what I was talking about was not an opinion but a clear scientific fact. So please don't come to me with that you-did-it-first-so-I'm-right attitude.

2005-11-09 [The Pink Panther]: And as for you, Dilandau, what exactly do you mean by "potential life". I hope you do not believe the fetus is some kind of ("non-living"???) being that suddenly and magically turns into a living being at the moment of birth? You've got a living female gamete and a living male gamete, and they together form a new kind of cell with different DNA... should we think this new cell is dead?

2005-11-09 [Veltzeh]: [The Pink Panther], maybe you should've said so, then? As far as I see, it's you who's mostly attacking... I still don't see much sense in your comments, though. Would you be offended if I asked you to clarify them and not make some other (irrelevant) comments?

2005-11-09 [The Pink Panther]: Okay, I apologize for making a comment expecting you to understand it. However, I do not apologize for the fact that you felt it as offensive or attacking., because it was far from it. Now, if there is anything you seem needs clarifying, tell me what it is, and I will be glad to erase any misunderstanding.

2005-11-09 [kay-chan]: Yeah, Dilandau, it's a downward spiral, aka sperm as a potential human... I'm just saying some people believe that a zygote has the potential for life. And [The Pink Panther], the 'potential for life' means the potential that it will grow into a human. Life is (usually) defined as the ability to divide and maintain a stable environment, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a zygote is yet human. It is a human cell, but is it a seperate organism by itself? No.

2005-11-09 [Veltzeh]: [The Pink Panther]: Well, it wasn't me who started questioning here. I also thought I was being well not attacking as far as I could see.

2005-11-09 [Dil*]: Question: Would you call the blueprints for a house a house?

2005-11-10 [kay-chan]: Without the blueprints, house has no potential to ever be built, which is exactly what I meant when i said "some people believe that the zygote has the potential for life." I hope you do realize that you're making me argue for a side I don't agree with. I'm just stating a philosophy.

2005-11-10 [The Pink Panther]: Veltzeh, there's no use go on with this. You felt offended? Fine, I apologize, and I guarantee that was not my intention. Done with it. And Kay-chan, biology is nothing like architecture. Mainly because Nature does not use (or need) blueprints. Besides, what do you call a being with rose DNA? You call it a rose. What do you call a being with human DNA? I don't know you, but I usually call it human, not "potentially" human...

2005-11-10 [kay-chan]: Would you call a rose cell a complete rose? No. I do not cut myself and wipe away the blood thinking, "I'm killing humans!" simply because each blood cell has human DNA. By that logic, a zygote is not human because it's simply one cell. Would you call a brick a complete house? See last answer. Biology is very similar to architecture on a few discreet points. Besides, DNA=blueprints, literally, so nature does use blueprints.

2005-11-10 [The Pink Panther]: Well, DNA is present in every cell, I do not think blueprints are present in every brick. I think it's quite a dangerous comparison the one you're doing. And besides... the zygote has more in common with an unicellular being, than with an isolated cell.

2005-11-10 [kay-chan]: Yes, it's quite dangerous to compare building a person with building a house. With every word I compare bricks and cells to, I'm that much closer to just imploding and dying. They're just words, and as a simplistic definition, it works just fine. An isolated cell is specific in the body. A zygote is nonspecific to a body part, a 'stem cell,' and will keep dividing until there are enough cells to specify. Such cells are produced from the marrow, I'm pretty sure. But as you said, a zygote has things in COMMON with a unicellular being (so do all cells); it is not a multicellular organism such as a human. It is not A human.

2005-11-11 [The Pink Panther]: Well.. actually, it has EVERYTHING in comon with an unicellular beign, and since the very moment of conception begins to divide and reproduce... is a two-or-more-cells being enough human for you?

2005-11-11 [kay-chan]: Again, I don't know the specific theories on when a fetus crosses over to a baby (obviously your's is 'instantly'), but even at a thousand cells it's still just a lump of indescript cells; they haven't begun to specify until a ways later in the process. And I hesitate to talk about unicellular beings in comparison to singular eukaryotic cells, seeing as how most unicellular beings are prokaryotic or archaea, bacteria and some-such. But a unicellular being (eg bacteria) can survive on its own, independent from constant support, as a separate human can, but a cell from a human can't, as a zygote or a respective early fetus can't.

2005-11-11 [Dil*]: Without blueprints, no house could be built. True, but blueprints for a house is not a house.

2005-11-12 [kay-chan]: Exactly.

2005-11-13 [The Pink Panther]: Well, Kay, should we mention the fact that an already born baby cannont survive on his own either? Or waht about lichens? They are the "combination", so to speak, of a fungus and an alga. None of them can survive without the other, and still we have two different and absolutely distinctive living beings. And as for my theory, do I really need to explain that when I said "suddenly and magically turns into a living being " I was being ironic? So... just for you to know, this is the las comment you will get from me in this debate, considering this is the third time I have to go back to explain a point I considered understood just because either you (all of you, not you Kay-

2005-11-13 [The Pink Panther]: chan in particualr) didn´t understand, or didn´t want to understand. Thanks for your time, and see you around. [The Pink Panther]

2005-11-13 [Veltzeh]: I kind of find it repulsive that any living being would use another (the mother) as a life-support vessel against the "vessel"'s wishes, needs and risking both of their healths. Of course, no problem if the mother wants to be a life-support vessel...

2005-11-13 [kay-chan]: It's almost parasitic... Okay, bye [The Pink Panther].

2005-11-15 [Dil*]: You haven't even addressed the problem of human rights vs human rights here.

2006-01-07 [Dil*]: american terrorism

2006-01-07 [Morrigon]: gah.....I don't have any words right now -.-

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